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 So, Why the Switch To Unity? 
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:44 am
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Post So, Why the Switch To Unity?
I'm not complaining, just curious as I haven't seen an explanation.

[ Side Rant ]
I feel like typing up a rant about how new game engines *FEEL* different, as far as the positive(read: affirmative, hard, absolute) feedback between myself, the environment, and other players. Older game engines(tribes2, quake III for ex) seem to have this highly 'positive' feedback, where newer ones make me feel disconnected from the environment and happenings, as if I'm in my own world and it tells me what actually happened later.
Does anyone else know what I mean?
It's like the difference of seeing your disc connect and explode in real time in tribes2,
and seeing your disc fly through a player in tribes ascend and explode later. You see the player get hit and affected by the impulse a second and a half after when the actually simulation took place.

^ I feel that way in a lot of games, be it pc or console, or w/e else... Anyone else?

[/ Side Rant ]

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Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:01 am
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Post Re: So, Why the Switch To Unity?
Switched to Unity because UDK really just wasn't working out code wise. Great engine, but not super flexible due to the black boxxing of a lot of the components. Unity is more flexible with less effort. Once I having a working ski demo, I'll be detailing differences between the two engines along with any pros and cons I see.

As for the side rant, for multiplayer games, the disconnect can likely be traced back to anticheat. A lot of older engines had little, if any, anticheat that would interfere with normal gameplay. Some multiplayer games trusted clients to handle some of the computations for the server too. Pretty much all new titles run net code that assumes no trust in clients. Some net code is neutral and just acts to relay player actions to the server and communicate server decisions to the player. Some net code is client hostile and attempts to verify player actions at all times.

Client trust allows for much crisper gameplay, but comes with the caveat that traditionally all clients are trusted which opens the door for limitless in game hacks essentially; anyone who remembers Delta Force 2 hackers will have experienced what I'm talking about. Client neutral code is still very crisp, but prioritizes server correctness over client correctness. Occasionally clients will experience or observe hiccups or rubberbanding, but on a whole the events are minimal when running with minimal packet loss and low ping. Quake runs client neutral code and exemplifies the best that client neutral has ever been. Beyond client neutral we get into client hostile which seeks to farther eliminate the potential for hacks even those that are purely client side(wall hacks, aim bots, etc).

For Project Free Fall client neutral code is planned along with client trust code for some experimentation. My speculative thoughts for now are that if both client trust and client neutral code are implemented, servers could choose which they would like to run by default. If a server runs client trusted and there is anyone thought to be hacking on the server, let the players decide if they want to switch the target player to client neutral code; could be another option like vote kick and vote ban. Client trust code still has ping issues, but can be a much crisper client experience.

Also, physics play a huge part in newer games. Rather than separate entirely things like projectiles from normal physics, the trend has been to treat everything as a physics object to be handled by the physics engine(sometimes with elevated priority). Networked physics is a complete crapshoot as well. Aside from the need for more game bandwidth, there is no existing holy grail for networked physics like there is for netcode(quake). How any game will handle networked physics varies from game to game, and very few have managed to implement complex networked physics in a way that doesn't produce buggy behavior on a regular basis. Some game at some point will likely figure out networked complex physics, but I'm not holding my breath. Good news is that if ping can be eliminated completely(which could be possible through quantum entanglement), net code stops having to be fundamentally predictive and speculative. Reasons I can't wait for 0ms internet.

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"Not every idea your gonna have is gonna be great, but I guarentee you every idea that doesnt work will somehow work into the idea that does." -Derek Waters

"It's a weird feeling being borderline addicted to gaming and not having anything to play that I can tolerate at the same time." -DejZant

"No longer are you justified saying that an idea in science is not true because it doesn't make sense." -Neil deGrasse Tyson

@Saccaed for updates and randomness...


Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:06 pm
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Post Re: So, Why the Switch To Unity?
I find it less to do with the engine, and more to do with lag compensation implementation, which is rampant in new engines now, so...


Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:44 am
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Post Re: So, Why the Switch To Unity?
Net code in general has gone out the window for new games; wondering how/if publishers are pushing too hard compared to how/if teams are just asking way too much(sometimes games get crazy with network physics implementation). Also comes back to console expectations, which are unfortunately very low...

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"Not every idea your gonna have is gonna be great, but I guarentee you every idea that doesnt work will somehow work into the idea that does." -Derek Waters

"It's a weird feeling being borderline addicted to gaming and not having anything to play that I can tolerate at the same time." -DejZant

"No longer are you justified saying that an idea in science is not true because it doesn't make sense." -Neil deGrasse Tyson

@Saccaed for updates and randomness...


Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:06 am
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Post Re: So, Why the Switch To Unity?
Thanks for the awesome reply Ignorance - Very informative.
Offline still feels funny tho :p.

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Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:53 am
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Post Re: So, Why the Switch To Unity?
Now that source access has been released (for $19/month?), is a trip back to UDK a possibility or are you committed to Unity?

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Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:09 am
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Post Re: So, Why the Switch To Unity?
To UDK no; nothing changed with UDK. UE4 is the one that announced full source access. UE4 is a possibility, but I need to explore it before I can comment whether or not a switch will occur. They gave a free year of subscription to all UE4 beta testers(I am one of them), so no worries about having to pay in the immediate future. The tentative plan I have for now is to get online working in Unity and see about porting the same functionality to UE4. How smooth the port is will effect whether or not I will consider switching to UE4.

Either way, it'll be amusing to have PFF movement working in three different engines.

_________________
"Not every idea your gonna have is gonna be great, but I guarentee you every idea that doesnt work will somehow work into the idea that does." -Derek Waters

"It's a weird feeling being borderline addicted to gaming and not having anything to play that I can tolerate at the same time." -DejZant

"No longer are you justified saying that an idea in science is not true because it doesn't make sense." -Neil deGrasse Tyson

@Saccaed for updates and randomness...


Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:29 pm
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Post Re: So, Why the Switch To Unity?
One major (in my opinion) disadvantage that you should take note of is that unity lacks mod/map building tools or whatever you'd call it.
In UDK (not sure about UE4 yet) , you program the logic, create some actors and the level designer can just start up UDK
and place the actors needed for the game mode and from there he is free to create materials, add special effects, w/e he likes
and exports it to a packaged map file.

In unity free, he can't export code, can't export shaders/materials, can't export models, can't export nothing.
What if he wanted to add a huge sand storm, some time of day system.
In unity pro he can export asset bundles which can be everything but code (I think that includes shaders), and he will need
to have a pro license. There are ways around that, but those that I know of take a lot of effort, like coding you're
own game editor.

Your case might be a little different since you're going open source. I'm mainly talking about what I've seen with my limited
time in unity and legacyfps (not that I'm done :)). I've made a simple map exporter for legacyfps but its very limited to predefined prefabs/data. But what if the map maker will like to add some fancy terrain shader? what if you use some proprietary code,
you can't redistribute? if so they won't have any preview (if its a terrain shader for example).

Image


Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:17 pm
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Post Re: So, Why the Switch To Unity?
blakey88 wrote:
One major (in my opinion) disadvantage that you should take note of is that unity lacks mod/map building tools or whatever you'd call it.
In UDK (not sure about UE4 yet) , you program the logic, create some actors and the level designer can just start up UDK
and place the actors needed for the game mode and from there he is free to create materials, add special effects, w/e he likes
and exports it to a packaged map file.

Exactly the reason I worked very hard to get Free Fall working in UDK. UDK is much friendlier to modding out of the box. I'm still not sure how I'll be handling modding with Unity, but my initial thoughts are that I might have the Unity editor be the map and mod editor itself.

_________________
"Not every idea your gonna have is gonna be great, but I guarentee you every idea that doesnt work will somehow work into the idea that does." -Derek Waters

"It's a weird feeling being borderline addicted to gaming and not having anything to play that I can tolerate at the same time." -DejZant

"No longer are you justified saying that an idea in science is not true because it doesn't make sense." -Neil deGrasse Tyson

@Saccaed for updates and randomness...


Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:25 pm
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