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 General Design Concepts... 
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Post Re: General Design Concepts...
80cm wrote:
Melee Fists
Shaped energy that forms short blades over the hands.
The primary attack is a point blank punch that acts more like a stab.
Has a, charged, short range energy burst that consists of shaping the energy into a condensed ball and releasing it.
Just no, no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no


It would be amazing if the avatar screams "HAAADOUKEN!!!!" everytime you do that punch. :D


Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:51 am
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Post Re: General Design Concepts...
@80cm well i'm not the dev, i thought about a 1hit 1kill kind of flag to put in the left hand while leaving the weapon in the right one...but i don't know enough about how this game works so idk if that's a good decision.

even a karate kick works for me


Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:53 am
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Post Re: General Design Concepts...
yankee wrote:
Ignorance wrote:
If things are designed to the game, the the design process makes a bit more sense and tends to go something like "if it feels right, and matches the game, it is right." I insist that Project Free Fall exists outside time and space so that the design process is 100% relative to Project Free Fall, not something arbitrary.
TF2 is a good example, there are tons of new items and equipment but with the cel shading look and a comic-esque items it matches the original style.
Understand that this is exactly what I've been talking about when I've been mentioning the color pallet. TF2 is a perfect example of how color, and texture(cel shading in this case) can tie together many different weapons. I've never been arguing that strait pulling of weapons or assets from other games would work, it would look horrible, everyone knows that.

80cm wrote:
Wenz wrote:
@80cm about the flag, i think it's ok for now because long spears or flags to put in the back may mess with third person view, like in tribes
Well then if thats the case, the flag used as a spear should be stupidly strong but it replaces whatever gun you had currently out until you cap the flag, and "throwing it" equates to flag punting.

That could work, if someone wants to stomp your own team with the flag spear, the risk-reward is there.
Was thinking the flag would replace the melee weapon while being carried.

yankee wrote:
Also I'd like to add that having a design guideline doesn't mean we're stuck in our time-scale. It's no problem that it exists out of our time and space, but it has to exist in any time and spaceline because it wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Your 100% correct that whatever is made will look as if it was made at some timescale, I'm just trying to enforce the idea that not everything has to look as if made at the same timescale.

80cm wrote:
Ignorance wrote:
these things already exist, they corrupt the creation process

"to draw a rose, you must first forget all the other roses"?
Not quite. A more applicable statement might look like "to draw a rose, draw a rose, don't draw what is thought to be a rose."


80cm wrote:
Ignorance wrote:
energy manipulators that are without definite form

Too vague / broad, I have no idea what you're talking about, would the raiden fall under this cathegory? "without definite form" eludes me.
Raiden maybe could be considered an energy manipulator; the weapon has definite shape, but the projected beam does not; so if not an energy manipulator it would definitely be a hybrid. The energy sword and fists I described would be definitely be considered energy manipulators as they both lack a defined base. To clarify, a defined base is the weapon body; the thing that shoots projectiles with other weapons. When I say the energy manipulators lack defined shape, I mean they have a shape that shifts and distorts, not that they are like smoke or water.

Before I get into addressing questions about the weapons, the names are aliases please stop evaluating the names; they all will probably be replaced after implemented.

80cm wrote:
Chakra
Shoots shaped energy discs.
too similar to tribes, I suggest a different shape (ellypse that rotates along the curvature it takes would be cool), "chakra" as a name = strong nope

Image
That's what I'm thinking could be a cool projectile.
80cm wrote:
Javelin
Fires a rocket or some kind of self propelled projectile.
Is this basically the speed-only inheritance rocket launcher we have now?

Yes, this is exactly the rocket launcher we have now.
80cm wrote:
Boomstick
Releases energy to form a violent vortex that spreads and dissipates quickly over distance.
Whats the purpose of this? crowd control or just AOE damage? a jet engine turbine design would look pretty cool for this

Point blank cc and damage; would also be useful for splash jumping.
80cm wrote:
SureShot
Fires a tight grouping of projectiles over a medium distance.
basically a shotgun?

Sure, but not the standard sawed off that's in every game; something more like a hunting rifle that has a tighter spread.
80cm wrote:
The Rail
Uses energy to violently project a bullet.
Railgun?

Yep.
80cm wrote:
Raiden
Focuses a beam of energy over a short distance.
The beam resembles controlled lightning.
wee bit too similar to unreal default, something thicker and less "lightning like" would work

Don't really care about similarities, lightning looks cool.
80cm wrote:
The Burper
Rapidly fires a series of standard bullets.
The barrel is replaced after every fire sequence.
burst fire chaingun where "burst" is half a normal magazine in one go?

Hmm, stupid fast firing. When I hear the chaingun being compared to it, I just feel the rate of fire isn't being justified.
80cm wrote:
Perforator
Quickly fires charged balls of energy that dissipate over distance.
plasma chaingun?

Could be one way to see it; each ball having significantly less energy than a plasma ball. I was thinking it might look more like a ball of static electricity.
80cm wrote:
Hail Mary
Ballistically launches a projectile that separates into lots of tiny explosive and energy releasing projectiles.
Is similar to the T1 mortar in how it initially fires, and differs only in how the explosion happens.
The explosion is similar to a firework in that the initial explosion is followed by many smaller ones.
Basically a T:A MIRV and every of the 4 subshells become 4 subshells and so on? forming a wide AOE medium damage cluster of explosions, if I can't have a mortar like that of, say, T:A base one (single shot, high damage) I'm going to be really mad

No, not like the T:A MIRV, and you might have to get mad I donno. When I say explodes like a firework, I mean it; it's not a carpet bomb like the MIRV. Why many smaller explosions instead of one huge explosion? It's much harder to avoid taking damage by hiding around a corner; multiple explosions really means that players have to get out of range, not hide. Something to keep in mind, I hated the T:A mortar; it is far too weak. A mortar to be admired is the T1/T2 mortar; that thing killed. Also, it's better to think of the explosion like a two stage firework mortar, the initial explosion will be followed almost instantly by the smaller explosions; there will be just enough time between the initial and following explosion to allow the secondary projectiles to spread from the center a bit.
80cm wrote:
Pineapple Punch
Shoots medium range ballistic bouncy explosive projectiles.
The projectiles could be resemble the Tribes style explosive launcher rounds, or might be something of a capacitor that releases raw energy(an idea I like).
grenade launcher with nades that bounce upon impact?

Yea, pretty much, at least in function.
80cm wrote:
Plasma Launcher
Shoots stable plasma balls.
basically tribe's slow ROF plasmagun?

Yea, very similar.
80cm wrote:
Wilson
Shoots standard conventional rounds.
chaingun?

Yep.
80cm wrote:
Flag
Operates pretty much like a spear.
It can stab, and be thrown.
not bad, still a proper spear rather than the melee fists would be better

A proper spear won't happen, the flag is the spear, a different, standard, melee weapon is guaranteed.

yankee wrote:
80cm wrote:
Melee Fists
Shaped energy that forms short blades over the hands.
The primary attack is a point blank punch that acts more like a stab.
Has a, charged, short range energy burst that consists of shaping the energy into a condensed ball and releasing it.
Just no, no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no
It would be amazing if the avatar screams "HAAADOUKEN!!!!" everytime you do that punch. :D

Glad that someone sees the awesome potential(what's amusing is that I had the same thought after designing the weapon, not before).
Wenz wrote:
@80cm well i'm not the dev, i thought about a 1hit 1kill kind of flag to put in the left hand while leaving the weapon in the right one...but i don't know enough about how this game works so idk if that's a good decision.

even a karate kick works for me
Melee weapons in this game will have to be equipped like normal weapons; there will be no melee key. As for flag strength, I'm in agreement that the flag should gank fools hard if used as a weapon.

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Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:45 pm
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Post Re: General Design Concepts...
oh i meant like in legions, you carry the flag in one hand and the gun in the other one. But i get it


Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:02 pm
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Post Re: General Design Concepts...
Ignorance wrote:
Understand that this is exactly what I've been talking about when I've been mentioning the color pallet. TF2 is a perfect example of how color, and texture(cel shading in this case) can tie together many different weapons.

No, you previously talked about geometry vs color palette (rendering was out of the question, its not important either), what ties together TF2 weapons and apparel is that they're all modeled as cartoony, colored cartoony (with the same palette of cartoony colors), and they're all rendered in cell shading (because thats how the entire game is rendered).

Even if they were to be all different colors, and rendered in different ways, they would still look cartoony, because the 3d model at its very core has cartoony proportions.

Ignorance wrote:
I'm just trying to enforce the idea that not everything has to look as if made at the same timescale.

And I'm trying to enforce the idea that if everything wasnt made in the same timescale it will look out of place, moreso in a game that doesnt tie any of that content together in a single player campaign, nor will any of that content be (likely) justified in any traditional "lore".

Ignorance wrote:
fists I described would be definitely be considered energy manipulators

That was a rather confusing definition to just define something that carbon copies Skyrim's "conjured weapons" :P
Thats not a bad concept but energy weapons look really, really cheap/cliché. I'd steer clear from them.

Ignorance wrote:
A proper spear won't happen, the flag is the spear, a different, standard, melee weapon is guaranteed.

What is the purpose of the standard issued melee weapons? Couldn't we make do without them entirely?

Ignorance wrote:
Glad that someone sees the awesome potential

I find it way too cheesy :|
Besides, people would say "rasengan" in this day and age, either ways this is a very strong nope from me, melee basic attacks and a short duration "shield" as alternate fire (crossing arms, two blades form a small shield that if timed right can block 1 disc right before it hits you).

Ignorance wrote:
Melee weapons in this game will have to be equipped like normal weapons

ala project counter-fall / gaming pre cod4? I still don't see the purpose of a melee weapon, and if there has to be one, I find the idea of using it with "basic attacks/power attacks (hold M1, hold M2)" to be an extremely outdated and static way to go about it, might aswell not have any melee weapon than to half ass one like everyone else, no?


Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:18 pm
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Post Re: General Design Concepts...
i would like to see a weapon that has alternate fire depending on distance.. so without having to click another button for it to fire.

so you would fire a grenade that will explode on hit if target is hit within 2(range/seconds?) from the time/position it was fired. (just like the spinfusor.)

if not

it will move for 1 more second/5 yards and explode and have a directional cone explosion that acts like a shotgun.


Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:37 pm
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Post Re: General Design Concepts...
80cm wrote:
No, you previously talked about geometry vs color palette (rendering was out of the question, its not important either), what ties together TF2 weapons and apparel is that they're all modeled as cartoony, colored cartoony (with the same palette of cartoony colors), and they're all rendered in cell shading (because thats how the entire game is rendered).

Even if they were to be all different colors, and rendered in different ways, they would still look cartoony, because the 3d model at its very core has cartoony proportions.
True, the weapons in TF2 have some cartoony aspects, but those aspects are not exclusive to the cartoony look. The TF2 weapons could be converted to pretty well match the two weapons you linked on the first page of this post. TF2 is actually a good game to look towards as far as tying weapons from other games into one. Valve does a good job of converting weapons from other games to conform to the TF2 theme. If you want a hard theme, then think Quake 3 meets Unreal Tournament 3.

80cm wrote:
And I'm trying to enforce the idea that if everything wasnt made in the same timescale it will look out of place, moreso in a game that doesnt tie any of that content together in a single player campaign, nor will any of that content be (likely) justified in any traditional "lore".
This is all meaningless thought, John Carmack can handle this for me, "Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important." Asking the question "Why is there a Winchester 1887 in the year 5179" is moot, the point is to enjoy the game for what it is, not for what logically makes sense. Logic need not apply?

80cm wrote:
Ignorance wrote:
fists I described would be definitely be considered energy manipulators
That was a rather confusing definition to just define something that carbon copies Skyrim's "conjured weapons" :P
Thats not a bad concept but energy weapons look really, really cheap/cliché. I'd steer clear from them.
Ignorance wrote:
Glad that someone sees the awesome potential
I find it way too cheesy :|
Besides, people would say "rasengan" in this day and age, either ways this is a very strong nope from me, melee basic attacks and a short duration "shield" as alternate fire (crossing arms, two blades form a small shield that if timed right can block 1 disc right before it hits you).
So much of your disagreement consists of things I'd love to see. Totally forgot about Naruto, and would laugh quite hard when I first heard it. As for cheese, I'm all for it. Project Free Fall is not a conservative remake of classical games, it's an extension; what could be called cheesy or cliché makes perfect sense. If someone wants to make a badassed version of the railgun that's a rambo-esque bow, power to them(it actually would be pretty cool). If something in the game can get someone so involved that they start spouting sound bites, that something needs to be cherished.
As for the similarities to Skyrim, they are entirely coincidental; I actually haven't gotten round to playing Skyrim. If anything has inspired the pure energy weapons it would be movies, anime, and science.

80cm wrote:
Ignorance wrote:
Melee weapons in this game will have to be equipped like normal weapons
ala project counter-fall / gaming pre cod4? I still don't see the purpose of a melee weapon, and if there has to be one, I find the idea of using it with "basic attacks/power attacks (hold M1, hold M2)" to be an extremely outdated and static way to go about it, might aswell not have any melee weapon than to half ass one like everyone else, no?
It can be argued either way that melee weapons are or aren't needed functionally. However sometimes it's just appropriate to get up close a stab a fool. The best argument for functionally having a melee/point blank weapon is that it fills a range void. If a melee weapon exists(which it will), it will be just as relevant as any other weapon.

RompeR wrote:
i would like to see a weapon that has alternate fire depending on distance.. so without having to click another button for it to fire.
That's not out of the question. What you describe is like most any multistage projectile. Just keep in mind that weapons are being designed to not infringe too much on others. What you describe seems like it would infringe on the disc and rocket launcher. If the point is to shoot something that will explode on hit, it seems that the player would be better off choosing either the disc or the rocket. However, if another condition was added to the weapon, such as an arm time or requiring that the grenade bounced before being armed, the idea could clearly work. The idea behind an arm time or requiring a bounce is that it would promote using the grenade launcher's special properties; the projectiles will arc, so an arm time would see the grenade launcher used more exclusively to hit targets by lobbing rounds over things; the projectiles bounce, so a bounce to arm would promote hitting targets around targets.

_________________
"Not every idea your gonna have is gonna be great, but I guarentee you every idea that doesnt work will somehow work into the idea that does." -Derek Waters

"It's a weird feeling being borderline addicted to gaming and not having anything to play that I can tolerate at the same time." -DejZant

"No longer are you justified saying that an idea in science is not true because it doesn't make sense." -Neil deGrasse Tyson

@Saccaed for updates and randomness...


Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:33 am
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Post Re: General Design Concepts...
I finally saved some time to read every bit i skipped because of exams and now i wonder if a particular weapon design that works with every kind of surroundings is needed: when i think about "jetpack games" like tribes or PPF flying and skiing are what makes them cool to me, thus i think of weapons that feel exciting to use in those situations. Especially when it comes to speed kills and falling, idk...cutting air throwing knives, thin and sharp looking weapons shooting edgy projectiles like the ripper from ut99 or the not so thin nailgun from etqw, blocky and heavy rail/lighting weapons that feel and look like arm extensions, Trident flags and the explosive stuff. If weapons will feel exciting to use maybe players won't mind what kind of map they are skiing in and they' ll pick some maps as favourites because of minor details. It's probably like the porn movie example or the martial thing tournament, functionality may not equal excitement in some ways.


Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:31 am
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Post Re: General Design Concepts...
Wenz wrote:
If weapons will feel exciting to use maybe players won't mind what kind of map they are skiing in and they' ll pick some maps as favourites because of minor details.


But you can make exciting maps and weapons, no? :|


Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:45 am
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